"Redbaiter" <don't@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3f545c27$1@no-spam
Socialism not only kills people literally but worse it kills the human
spirit.
I am reading a book at the moment about the recent history of Cuba with a
short rundown on it's history pre Castro. Cuba's economy was building up. It
had it's fair share of entrepreneurial people. Spanish speaking Europeans
went there because of the good economic environment. The country as a whole
was making money which was invested in infrastructure. That was in spite of
sleazy dictators who at least didn't interfere with it's capitalist economy.
Castro took over, murdered his opponemnts and installed communism. The first
casualty was the entrepreneurial spirit of the people. Businesses were
confiscated and the owners sent to work on collective farms and the like. By
our standards Cuba is now a basket case.
We should be very wary of socialism even a benign socialism such as we have
here.
Bob Howard.
Bob Howard wrote:
> "Redbaiter" <don't@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:3f545c27$1@no-spam
>
> Socialism not only kills people literally but worse it kills the human
> spirit.
>
> I am reading a book at the moment about the recent history of Cuba with a
> short rundown on it's history pre Castro. Cuba's economy was building up. It
> had it's fair share of entrepreneurial people. Spanish speaking Europeans
> went there because of the good economic environment. The country as a whole
> was making money which was invested in infrastructure. That was in spite of
> sleazy dictators who at least didn't interfere with it's capitalist economy.
>
> Castro took over, murdered his opponemnts and installed communism. The first
> casualty was the entrepreneurial spirit of the people. Businesses were
> confiscated and the owners sent to work on collective farms and the like. By
> our standards Cuba is now a basket case.
>
> We should be very wary of socialism even a benign socialism such as we have
> here.
>
>
> Bob Howard.
>
>
Wait a minute. I was told that the reason Cuba's a basket case is
because of US trade sanctions.
"Michael Gordge" <mikegordge@no-spam> wrote in message
news:ef47a19d.0309031047.5b9b6a59@no-spam
> > >
> > Socialism is the beginning of communism and democracy is the road
> taking us there. eg the communist Greens got to the Beehive and now
> influence government policy through democracy, superdemocracy is the
> superhighway to communism.
Dear dear.
You are so confused.
> The alternative to democracy is "freedom"
The only alternative to democracy/Superdemocracy
is dictatorship - which means laws by decree.
If people are not able to stipulate their own laws -
there is no freedom - only dictatorial oppression.
> Freedom from initiated force or threatened initiated force or fraud.
Fairytale stuff.
Doesn't happen under dictatorships.
Man always abuses power if given only half the chance.
> What one man may NOT do to another, freedom means, then neither can a
> "mob" of man do it either.
More fairytale stuff.
Individuals cannot expect majorities to do their bidding.
> If the state forbids theft and threats of violence between
> individuals, then neither can the state (a mob of man) threaten
> violence upon individuals.
The state = majority of society
who are entitled to make the laws and expect
them to be complied with.
> Freedom = absense of aggression
Yep.
> socialism = beginning of communism
Not necessarily.
> democracy = road from socialism to communism
Not necessarily.
Depends on the military might or what the people want.
Democracy/Superdemocracy = Freedom of the people
to stipulate all the rights and laws *they* want - to apply
equally to all.
That's as much liberty as is possible in any society.
TC
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The NZ Super Democratic Party's Website is:
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<<<< Dare to be Superdemocratic >>>>
"Michael Gordge" <mikegordge@no-spam> wrote in message
news:ef47a19d.0309032317.5c9dbd43@no-spam
> "tonycook" <tonycook@no-spam> wrote in message
news:<bj5jre$481$1@no-spam>...
> > "Michael Gordge" <mikegordge@no-spam> wrote in message
> > news:ef47a19d.0309031047.5b9b6a59@no-spam
> > > > >
> > > > Socialism is the beginning of communism and democracy is the road
> > > taking us there. eg the communist Greens got to the Beehive and now
> > > influence government policy through democracy, superdemocracy is the
> > > superhighway to communism.
> >
> > Dear dear.
> > You are so confused.
>
> I went fishing, you bit like the shark you are.
By all means fish to your heart's content.
I prefer a bit of schnapper to shark though.
> > If people are not able to stipulate their own laws -
>
> Now you're staring to sound exactly like a libertarian tonycook.
Well I'm glad you agree that people should stipulate their own laws -
and in order to do that fairly - they settle on the majority view,
and obviously the minority view cannot prevail as well.
Glad you finally appreciate what's practical and what's not.
Wasn't so hard was it?
(snipped)
> > there is no freedom - only dictatorial oppression.
>
> Absolutely, let and uphold the rights of "individuals" to keep their
> own values, wow tonycook, you're getting good at this.
And as long as those rights and values are within the law,
that's fine with me.
> > > Freedom from initiated force or threatened initiated force or fraud.
> >
> > Fairytale stuff.
>
> Yeah but if I can get others to change their thinking, as YOU have
> clearly done, then we're well on the way, tonycook.
I don't think you'll persuade many people to engage in fairytale stuff
somehow.
I'm not aware of any changes to my thinking - but I know you now
realise quite a bit better the huge flaws in the Loony Libz philosophy -
so it's been well worth it.
> > Doesn't happen under dictatorships.
> > Man always abuses power if given only half the chance.
>
> Yeah, so lets get YOUR repugnant and democractic "idea", of a "mob" of
> persons having "power" over individuals or smaller mobs, out of YOUR
> thinking, tonycook.
No thanks.
I'll keep my democratic rights thanks and not be dictated to by anyone.
Instead - Democratic/Superdemocratic decisions are totally acceptable
because they reflect most people's preferences.
I'm more than happy to abide by the majority - knowing that I will always
be able to have my say meaningfully under Superdemocracy.
Sometimes I'll win and sometimes I'll lose - but I'll always have the right
to still have my say.
> If ONE man may NOT have power over another,
Provided no law is broken - yes.
You keep missing out (very conveniently) the most
important bits.
> > Individuals cannot expect majorities to do their bidding.
>
> Gosh, spoken like a real libertarian,
Superdem actually.
Seems Libz have changed their tune then.
Good stuff.
And individuals therefore concede to majorities.
>libertarians
> say, "individuals MUST be left alone to do their own thinking".
Absolutely.
Think away all you like.
There's certainly no law that forbids doing your own thinking.
TC
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The NZ Super Democratic Party's Website is:
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~tonycook/nzsdp/ (Now updated) or
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<<<< Dare to be Superdemocratic >>>>
"Craig D" <craignz*@no-spam> wrote in message
news:3f59051e.1502653@no-spam
> On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 09:32:18 +1200, "tonycook" <tonycook@no-spam>
> wrote:
>
>> >Individual values have never - nor will ever be possible within any
> >society on their own - only collective values.
>
> Why the hell not?
Oh jeeze - you've got to be joking.
How the hell can you have 2.5 million laws for one issue?
Try to keep up.
> >You have never been able to show or explain how it would be
> >possible - because you can't - and because it's not possible.
> >eg. If your views and my views are diametrically opposed -
> >and have to be actioned - one of us has to give way to the other.
> >There is clearly no other option.
>
> You ignore who actually owns the right to control the matter
> concerned.
Ownership provides no other rights other than ownership.
Deciding other issues is everybody's right.
Society doesn't constitute millions of little kingdoms.
It's one collective of individuals living, working and cooperating
together for the benefit of all.
> If I think I should live, and you think I should die, one DOES have to
> give way to the other, but that doesn't mean it is something that
> should be voted on.
Well you could flip a coin I guess -
but *some* acceptable criteria for decision making *has* to be
established that's both fair and equitable.
> >Democracy/Superdemocracy recognises this and allows for the best
> >and fairest *compromise* that satisfies most people most of the time.
>
> Completely ignoring all individual rights.
Individuals do not have rights over and above what the majority
decides.
If they did - it would mean that minorities/individuals could
dictate to majorities.
That's dictatorship.
So instead - minorities/individuals concede to majorities.
That's democracy/Superdemocracy.
But it's impossible to have it both ways.
> Regardless of whose blood, sweat and tears have gone into any private
> property, you think it's FAIR to redistribute it because it satisfies
> most people?
No.
Never claimed it was.
Property owners only have a responsibility not to use their land
in such a way as to be a danger or impediment to anyone else.
(snipped)
> Deciding things about property regardless of who owns it is not fair.
If its use threatens or disadvantages others - then it's very fair.
You seem to have this extraordinary idea that owning something
automatically means you can expect all other people to accept
all and anything you wish to do regardless of its effect on others.
That is very definitely not so - never has been - and never will be.
Ownership of anything is not an automatic ticket to kingship.
> It is disgusting! It is claiming that "society" has a right to your
> life,
Correct.
Care to explain to me how you on your own little Pat Molloy
could ever stop them?
But don't worry.
Society has wisely chosen to protect your life.
(snipped)
> >One cannot - I repeat - cannot - satisfy everyone at all times.
> >Why can't you understand this very simple fact of life?
>
> I DO UNDERSTAND IT.
> I simply think that satisfying everyone should not be your end,
Oh jeeze mate - what the hell else do you think a political system
is for - or can provide?
Satisfaction is what we all want.
We all want to have our preferences.
(snipped)
> >What you are expecting is simply *not possible* !!!!!!
> >What is it about "not possible" that you don't understand?
>
> Why the hell not?
You can't have 2.5 million laws for one issue.
There *has to be* *one* law for all.
> Why can't a country where every person deals with every other person
> with voluntary mutual consent work?
Because it requires everybody to be nigh on perfect and reasonable -
and we're not.
We're not even honest with ourselves let alone other people.
Political systems have allow for this reality.
You could achieve a certain amount of voluntary mutual consent work,
but then you'll also not acheive same to people's cost or sufference.
You cannot have a political system that only addresses parts of problems.
(snipped)
> It's either voluntary, or someone uses force.
Democracy/Superdemocracy is voluntary
and adresses all issues.
Dictatorships always use force and oppress the majority.
> >(snipped)
> >> > And as long as those rights and values are within the law,
> >> > that's fine with me.
> >>
> >> Yeap that was just fine and dandy with 6 million Jews too.
> >
> >Irrelevant.
> >The jews were murdered by a military dictator
> >and not by any democratic means.
>
> Hmm, that's funny.
I don't think the Jews thought so.
> While the SA were running around terrorising jews, and while the Nazi
> party OPENLY stated their anti-semetic views, the Nazi party kept
> getting more seats.
Many Germans were taken in by utopian promises just
as Loony Libz is trying to create.
> But that's ok, because it's what society wants, isn't it?
We all know it's not ok and current human rights acknowledge it
worldwide.
I have never claimed history has no mistakes.
But because mistakes have been made - it doesn't
prove they would be repeated.
> It doesn't matter that while Hitler was telling people that jews were
> a disease that needed to be wiped out, they still voted for him.
It's irrevelent now.
Superdemocracy did not exist then,
so there is no comparison available.
Remember even the so called democracy we currently have
is nothing more than an elected dictatorship.
The NZSDP does not accept that that's sufficient democracy -
and that's why the NZSDP advocates Superdemocracy.
> >> The "law"
> >> is supposed to be about justice, not about the "whims" of mobs.
> >
> >Well - if the whims of the mob are of no account to you -
> >what makes your whims and/or the whims of Loony Libz
> >any better or fairer?
>
> The libz would not decide anything about other's property.
Then who would? Just the owner?
That'll be the day.
It assumes there are no idiots.
How do I prevent an idiot building a hydrogen bomb next door to me?
Give him lollies?
There have to be *some* property laws for the protection of all.
> The whims of the OWNER or the land, or the rights to control, would be
> what mattered.
Why?
It's not a separate kingdom.
All lands affect everyone.
> >Why and on what basis are the whims of a minority/individual
> >more important than the majority's?
>
> Oh my god. What a statement of inconcievable evil.
Dictatorship (as in Hitler's) is what's evil sushine.
Try to be realistic - it can help quite a bit.
(snipped)
> What right does a majority have to claim control over a man's life?
Protection of life is everyone's right.
We probably all support it.
(snipped)
> >Why should the majority bow to minorities/individuals -
> >thus making it a dictatorship?
>
> Indeed, my house is, and should be a dictatorship.
But it's not - and never will be in NZ.
If you want to live in a dictatorship pack your
bags and find one.
(snipped)
> The alternative is that everything you own, is no longer yours.
Yes it is.
But you have to consider others rights and considerations -
that's all.
Not such a big ask really.
(snipped)
> But law is not an objective fact of right.
Correct.
It's a collective majority consensus.
> It should be, but your law
> does not rest on objective individual rights, does it?
Current law rests entirely on the preferences of the majority
plus parliamentary dictatorial bulldozing.
Everybody counts. Everybody matters.
> Your law is whatever a majority wants, so your defence that men may
> not have power over one another, provided that they follow your legal
> system, is of absolutely no assurance whatsoever.
The assurance you seek doesn't exist.
Only people can make or not make things happen.
Any democratic/Superdemocratic political system
or system of law depends on majority support -
otherwise it's simply a mockery.
Dictatorships enforce laws using might.
The results are always oppressive and doomed to failure
eventually.
Look at all the trouble spots around the world.
They're all caused by dictatorships.
Dictatorship is the worst possible system of government.
(snipped)
> >Incorrect.
> >People are threatened with arrest and penalties for breaking the law -
> >not for their thinking.
>
> Can't you see?
> The law can extend to include the way you think.
No it can't.
It can only reflect what the majority thinks.
> >But as long as you persist in ignoring realities - of course
> >even the most simple events will always remain very complicated
> >for you.
>
> I can't decide whether you are innocently ignorant of the kinds of
> people your system would destroy,
Superdemocracy will never destroy anyone.
The worst that can happen is that a few issues might not
go your way at some time or other.
Not so bad really.
TC
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The NZ Super Democratic Party's Website is:
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~tonycook/nzsdp/ (Now updated) or
http://devcentre.org/nzsdp/index.htm (Join the mailing list.)
<<<< Dare to be Superdemocratic >>>>
"Olson Johnson" <oj@no-spam> wrote in message
news:eG86b.3914$cg.201163@no-spam
>
> "Craig D" <craignz*@no-spam> wrote in message
> news:3f59051e.1502653@no-spam
> >
> > Why can't a country where every person deals with every other person
> > with voluntary mutual consent work?
>
> Because of the necessity of delegating representation, and the conflicts
of
> interest that arise when you do so.
> Its why tonycookland won't work either.
If you understood Superdemocracy properly - and that may yet happen -
you will observe that delegating and representing are removed from the
system altogether.
Hence conflicts of interest cannot arise either.
Just thought I'd point it out - as you seem to have missed it or
misunderstood it somehow.
TC
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The NZ Super Democratic Party's Website is:
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<<<< Dare to be Superdemocratic >>>>
"Michael Gordge" <mikegordge@no-spam> wrote in message
news:ef47a19d.0309051917.4b0ba202@no-spam
> craignz*@no-spam (Craig D) wrote in message
news:<3f59051e.1502653@no-spam>...
> > On Sat, 6 Sep 2003 09:32:18 +1200, "tonycook" <tonycook@no-spam>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >> ding dong - wrong, when the mob get involved, then individual values
> > >> are NOT possible,
> > >
> > >Individual values have never - nor will ever be possible within any
> > >society on their own - only collective values.
> >
> > Why the hell not?
> >
> > >You have never been able to show or explain how it would be
> > >possible - because you can't - and because it's not possible.
> > >eg. If your views and my views are diametrically opposed -
> > >and have to be actioned - one of us has to give way to the other.
> > >There is clearly no other option.
> >
> > You ignore who actually owns the right to control the matter
> > concerned.
Incorrect.
All legal rights are granted by society.
> > If I think I should live, and you think I should die, one DOES have to
> > give way to the other, but that doesn't mean it is something that
> > should be voted on.
> >
> > >Democracy/Superdemocracy recognises this and allows for the best
> > >and fairest *compromise* that satisfies most people most of the time.
> >
> > Completely ignoring all individual rights.
There are no other individual legal rights -
other than those granted by society.
> > Regardless of whose blood, sweat and tears have gone into any private
> > property, you think it's FAIR to redistribute it because it satisfies
> > most people?
> >
> > If i've put hours of work into buying some property, I don't give a
> > fuck how many people it would satisfy if you took it away.
> >
> > Society does not own me.
Correct.
Nobody does - unless you sold yourself to someone.
> > To claim a right to my property
Nobody is claiming a right *to* your property.
But society has every right to have rights *over
the use* of your property - such that others'
rights are not trampled upon.
(snipped)
> So you see tonycook, it must be just so infuriating to you, that a
> chap (Craig) who I have never met in my life, is able to carry the
> identical message as me, without one single contradiction between what
> he says and what I say.
It indicates the brainwashing effect is quite effective,
for a few naive people - yes.
But not necessarily of any apparent truth or positive value.
Loony Libz philosophy has captured a few gullible people
because it promises utopian ideals that are of course quite
impossible to realise - but many people don't realise this -
or that it's dictatorship - and get sucked in and along with
all the magical fantasy "Alice in Wonderland " fervour.
It's unfortunate, but people tend to only see what they want
to see and just disregard the rest.
Fortunately 99.97% of the electorate are not gullible and
recognise a fraud/impossible dream when they see one -
and I'm confident that you and Craig will too - eventually.
TC
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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